Should Scientists Debate the Undebatable?

Joe Rogan invites debate after a misinformation-filled podcast with Robert F. Kennedy Jr.

On June 20, 2023, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. appeared on The Joe Rogan Experience, the most popular podcast in the world. Rogan was a comedian, actor, host of the television program Fear Factor, and color commentator for the Ultimate Fighting Champion. RFK Jr. is a lawyer. What better pair to educate the public about vaccines, science, and medicine?

The program was packed with dangerous and misleading information. For example:

Kennedy said, “None of these vaccines are ever subjected to true placebo-controlled trials.” Most vaccines are tested in placebo-controlled trials before licensure. Perhaps the largest and most famous was that of Jonas Salk’s polio vaccine, where 420,000 first and second graders in the United States were inoculated with the vaccine and 200,000 were inoculated with a salt water placebo. Sixteen children died from polio during that study, all in the placebo group. There are no risk-free choices.

Kennedy said that thimerosal, an ethylmercury-containing preservative in vaccines, was “horrendously toxic.” Western Europe removed thimerosal from childhood vaccines in the early 1990s and the U.S. in 2001. Thirteen studies have now shown that thimerosal wasn’t harmful. Given that ethylmercury is excreted from the body far faster than methylmercury, which can be harmful, these results weren’t surprising.

Kennedy said, “you get [hepatitis B] from sharing needles, going to a really seasoned prostitute, or from compulsive homosexual behavior…A baby gets it from their mom.” Before the hepatitis B vaccine was recommended for babies in the early 1990s, the virus infected about 18,000 children every year. Half of those children acquired the virus from their mother. The other half from non-sexual contact with someone who was silently infected with the virus. The hepatitis B vaccine has virtually eliminated hepatitis B infections in children.

Kennedy claimed that “vaccines cause autism.” At least 18 studies have now shown that children who are highly vaccinated are not more likely to develop autism than those who aren’t.

Kennedy said that the 1918 “Spanish flu pandemic was caused by the vaccine.” Influenza vaccines weren’t invented until the late 1940s.

Kennedy said, “I think Wi-Fi radiation…does all kinds of bad things including causing cancer…There are cell phone tumors always on the ear that you use the cell phone...I never put my cell phone by my head.” Ionizing radiation, like X-rays, can damage DNA and cause cancer, which is why X-ray technicians wear lead shields. Wi-Fi And cell phones emit radio waves, which are not ionizing and, therefore, don’t cause cancer.

Joe Rogan has said that since no one has stepped up to debate RFK Jr.—or sued him for his false claims—he must be right. Should scientists debate RFK Jr.?

Scientific debates occur all the time. For example, Andrew Wakefield published a now-retracted paper claiming that the measles-mumps-rubella (MMR) vaccine caused autism. Since that publication, dozens of studies have shown that those who received MMR weren’t at greater risk of autism than those who hadn’t. The MMR-causes-autism debate was waged where it should have been waged—in medical and scientific journals. In the end, it didn’t matter what Andrew Wakefield said or what the scientists who exonerated the MMR vaccine said. Only the data mattered—robust, reproducible, consistent data done by hundreds of researchers on three continents. In a better world, the data would do the talking.

However, we don’t live in that world. Because most people don’t read scientific studies, I recommend the takedown of RFK Jr. by a scientist named Dan Wilson, who runs a podcast called Debunk the Funk. Wilson gave RFK Jr. his debate by showing clips from Rogan’s podcast then systematically presenting scientific evidence that refuted the false and misleading claims. Wilson didn’t give RFK Jr. the cabaret act he wanted, but listeners got the information they needed.

Because he doesn’t have solid data to support his claims, RFK Jr. routinely attacks scientists, pharmaceutical companies, and government officials. As noted by Carl Sandburg, “If the facts are against you, argue the law. If the law is against you, argue the facts. If the facts and the law are against you, pound the table and yell like hell.” Because RFK Jr. is now a candidate for president of the United States, the yelling and the pounding will likely only get louder and more strident. Much to the detriment of the American public.